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Interview of eminent historian Prof. Irfan Habib
Prof Irfan Habib
If Indian nationalism is another name for Hindutva, then we are on the same lines as Pakistan: Prof Irfan Habib
Controversy after controversy rages on about Indian history and re-writing it. Is one ideology forcing its stamp on the psyche of the entire nation? Or are there, in reality, critical questions on the efficacy of the courses we have studied so far, in the belief that they are neutral and written by a secular pen. Prionka Jha met eminent historian Prof Irfan Habib and sought clarifications. Q What are your views on the re-writing of NCERT books?
A. See, the fact is the present textbooks are really very good. They have been revised over time. Several editions have come out. But in no history book, everything is perfect. In case there are any suggestions, those can be looked into. Most of the criticism of the current texts is off the point and is not really correct. A similar attempt to re-write was also done during 1977-79 under the Janata Party. The BJP has launched a two-pronged defensive. First under the name of changing the syllabus of NCERT books. It is an exercise to change the book. The other reason is patronage -- they want their own people to re-write the book. The two names mentioned by the government (Makhan Lal and Verma) simply shows this intention. They are by no means top level historians .The BJP has not consulted any top historian in re-writing of NCERT books. Well, they don’t want to consult any important historian as their views will not be favourable to them.
Q In case the present BJP government is successful in re-writing history, what sort of a negative impact will it have on the present and future generations?
A Well, Pakistan is one example. When Pakistan was formed Jinnah made a speech that Sikhs, Parsis, Christians, Hindus, Muslims – all are Pakistanis and are not Hindus or Muslims. They belong to secular and democratic nation. It was a civilised address and everyone welcomed it. And now, in the same Pakistan, you see what the situation is.... history begins from Mohammad bin Qasim and not from Mohenjodaro and Harrapa. Despite having rich cultural heritage, they begin their history from Qasim – clearly overlooking the vast historical background that needs to be incorporated. So, how would you view such a nation? Jinnah’s speech was correct that we now have a community but let it now be a secular, democratic country. This is a viable view and I still believe in it, only if the educational system wasn’t distorted. What BJP is attempting to do now is undermine secularism of our nation and is trying to create a Pakistan within India. If Indian nationalism or Indian secularism is another name for Hindutva for BJP, then we are on the same line as that of Pakistan.
Q What do you think should be the role of the opposition parties in re-writing of NCERT books? A Actually, the education ministers have said they would not implement this and will continue on their own. They would not agree to an amendment in the Constitution for which BJP is trying so hard on this issue.
Q Recently, some Sikh organisations raised questions on representation of ‘Guru Teg Bahadur’ as a plunderer in NCERT books. What is your view on that?
A He (Prof. Satish Chandra) has already held a press conference where he clarified that he is calling Guru Teg Bahadur as a plunderer but there is a Persian account which mention him to be a plunderer. But then he went ahead to praise Guru Teg Bahadur as the leader of the peasant so on and so forth. So, what he was introducing was a particular view. See, even in Muslim’s history during times of Prophet, others describe Muslims as plunderers. So, if any history has to be written and if you have objection to it, then it can’t be written. Similarly, while describing Guru Teg Bahadur, he was not giving his own view. But that is another question whether such things should be avoided or not. Q History as a subject is not job-oriented. Do you think, as a result of this, history is losing its charm with students?
A History cannot be market-oriented. In all the universities all over the world, all social science graduates cannot be accommodated in social science teaching. History is a helpful subject for many professionals (many study history and then take up any other professional course). For instance, I see many lawyers doing history because they can fight precedents. There is no immediate demand. What would a businessman do with a historian?
Q The recently released movie Asoka – not being a truly historical movie, rather it is a fictional movie. Do you think such movies should be made?
A See, the trouble about Asoka is that there are two traditions associated with Asoka. First, the Buddhist tradition and second, the inscriptions of Asoka – both do not match. The Buddhist tradition says that they sent Buddhist missionaries to spread Buddhism but the Asokan inscriptions say that dharmamahamatras(Asoka’s ministers) were sent outside India to places like Sri Lanka to spread Buddhism. But the Asokan inscriptions should be referred because that is what Asoka says. Besides, most movies are based on fiction. Otherwise, they would not run. But, it would be better if it is based on the inscriptions and only secondarily be based on fiction and such films should be realistic. Q How has your father Mr Mohd. Habib , the great historian that he was, influenced your writings?
A Well, that is only for others to judge. I was a great admirer of my father of course. He took my classes in MA. After some time though, I started having doubts about his interpretations, but he encouraged those doubts. He was very good that way. He used to tell me, I do not like yes men.
Q What are your views on the introduction of astrology as a subject?
A What is the need to teach astrology? The middle class pays so much of tax, of what use will astrology be for such students. Putting astrology in the course structure is a religious insertion and is not a science.
Controversy after controversy rages on about Indian history and re-writing it. Is one ideology forcing its stamp on the psyche of the entire nation? Or are there, in reality, critical questions on the efficacy of the courses we have studied so far, in the belief that they are neutral and written by a secular pen. Prionka Jha met eminent historian Prof Irfan Habib and sought clarifications. Q What are your views on the re-writing of NCERT books?
A. See, the fact is the present textbooks are really very good. They have been revised over time. Several editions have come out. But in no history book, everything is perfect. In case there are any suggestions, those can be looked into. Most of the criticism of the current texts is off the point and is not really correct. A similar attempt to re-write was also done during 1977-79 under the Janata Party. The BJP has launched a two-pronged defensive. First under the name of changing the syllabus of NCERT books. It is an exercise to change the book. The other reason is patronage -- they want their own people to re-write the book. The two names mentioned by the government (Makhan Lal and Verma) simply shows this intention. They are by no means top level historians .The BJP has not consulted any top historian in re-writing of NCERT books. Well, they don’t want to consult any important historian as their views will not be favourable to them.
Q In case the present BJP government is successful in re-writing history, what sort of a negative impact will it have on the present and future generations?
A Well, Pakistan is one example. When Pakistan was formed Jinnah made a speech that Sikhs, Parsis, Christians, Hindus, Muslims – all are Pakistanis and are not Hindus or Muslims. They belong to secular and democratic nation. It was a civilised address and everyone welcomed it. And now, in the same Pakistan, you see what the situation is.... history begins from Mohammad bin Qasim and not from Mohenjodaro and Harrapa. Despite having rich cultural heritage, they begin their history from Qasim – clearly overlooking the vast historical background that needs to be incorporated. So, how would you view such a nation? Jinnah’s speech was correct that we now have a community but let it now be a secular, democratic country. This is a viable view and I still believe in it, only if the educational system wasn’t distorted. What BJP is attempting to do now is undermine secularism of our nation and is trying to create a Pakistan within India. If Indian nationalism or Indian secularism is another name for Hindutva for BJP, then we are on the same line as that of Pakistan.
Q What do you think should be the role of the opposition parties in re-writing of NCERT books? A Actually, the education ministers have said they would not implement this and will continue on their own. They would not agree to an amendment in the Constitution for which BJP is trying so hard on this issue.
Q Recently, some Sikh organisations raised questions on representation of ‘Guru Teg Bahadur’ as a plunderer in NCERT books. What is your view on that?
A He (Prof. Satish Chandra) has already held a press conference where he clarified that he is calling Guru Teg Bahadur as a plunderer but there is a Persian account which mention him to be a plunderer. But then he went ahead to praise Guru Teg Bahadur as the leader of the peasant so on and so forth. So, what he was introducing was a particular view. See, even in Muslim’s history during times of Prophet, others describe Muslims as plunderers. So, if any history has to be written and if you have objection to it, then it can’t be written. Similarly, while describing Guru Teg Bahadur, he was not giving his own view. But that is another question whether such things should be avoided or not. Q History as a subject is not job-oriented. Do you think, as a result of this, history is losing its charm with students?
A History cannot be market-oriented. In all the universities all over the world, all social science graduates cannot be accommodated in social science teaching. History is a helpful subject for many professionals (many study history and then take up any other professional course). For instance, I see many lawyers doing history because they can fight precedents. There is no immediate demand. What would a businessman do with a historian?
Q The recently released movie Asoka – not being a truly historical movie, rather it is a fictional movie. Do you think such movies should be made?
A See, the trouble about Asoka is that there are two traditions associated with Asoka. First, the Buddhist tradition and second, the inscriptions of Asoka – both do not match. The Buddhist tradition says that they sent Buddhist missionaries to spread Buddhism but the Asokan inscriptions say that dharmamahamatras(Asoka’s ministers) were sent outside India to places like Sri Lanka to spread Buddhism. But the Asokan inscriptions should be referred because that is what Asoka says. Besides, most movies are based on fiction. Otherwise, they would not run. But, it would be better if it is based on the inscriptions and only secondarily be based on fiction and such films should be realistic. Q How has your father Mr Mohd. Habib , the great historian that he was, influenced your writings?
A Well, that is only for others to judge. I was a great admirer of my father of course. He took my classes in MA. After some time though, I started having doubts about his interpretations, but he encouraged those doubts. He was very good that way. He used to tell me, I do not like yes men.
Q What are your views on the introduction of astrology as a subject?
A What is the need to teach astrology? The middle class pays so much of tax, of what use will astrology be for such students. Putting astrology in the course structure is a religious insertion and is not a science.